Curse

Shmanka · Nov 10, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

I find it truly funny how people are complaining, and bringing the worst counter points to this entire argument, I only had to read probably the first 10 posts to get a sense of what is actually being debated.

First the AI is ~too good~ In a more or less consensus I completely agree. It seems more and more that a crip shot ranger has a home in every kind of environment, yet barrage will more or less never be used again. People came up with the counter points of "snaring" to a degree. Yes it is possible to do so, but then take into consideration you need a signet of capture, rebirth.. etc etc. Your skill bar will be SET FOR YOU. You will ALWAYS need specific skills just to ATTEMPT to kill something. You will have so many points into such a specific attribute your damage may be decreased. These PvE NPC's are defending their territory in a sense, not pretending to be crash test dummies.

The AI is ~great~ You must have really been poor the entire time you have played GW and never had a 55 monk. Which I think is the border for this argument. You either don't care, or hate it to bits. 55 farming in a sense did make the game unfair that a monk the most divine of all classes could make more money then the natural hunter, a ranger. Flavour wise, yes completely unfair. That alone should settle the score here. Although, how fair is it that a skill like cyclone axe, cant even be used against troll farming? Triple Chop? Gladiators Defence? The most used skills for warrior farming are completely nerfed as a result of this. How can anyone farm anything? Whether this point is valid or not, you can't farm; GG.

The AI ~sucks~ dude... super mario 64... the koopa just apparently wants a shoe up his rear end.

Blackest Rose · Nov 10, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Ok AI has changed and in my view there are lots of bugs with it now.

But even lets say they they coded it the way it was intended which is along the lines of - Enemies now kite when low on health.

Is that fundamentally an improvement?

How does this make the game better and more of a challenge - didn't the previous AI just go all for attacking - that's kind of like a spike build for me.
I mean a group of 9 monsters going all out attacking simulataneously is more challenging that 5 monsters going for me and 4 more kiting while they regain health.

Now all you need to do is soften up a few targets so that they believe they're hurt before really engaging them (e.g. a barrage or ele skill) then when you engage - instead of all the monsters going all out for your blood you now have quite a few less.... doesn't that make it easier but longer?

A real improvement there...
Haven't I heard that previous kinda difficult missions (e.g. THK) are now a "piece of cake" easy with henchies?

Is the AI done - in which case it's still bugged in my view with hero's/henchies/monster all having wrong reactions.

If the AI is fixed to match what was originally intended - will the game be so easy because effectively spike damage of groups is dramatically reduced?

Will more enemies be introduced to combat this?
Maybe they removed the agro range cut off because of this and that's why they chase you all over the map presently.

saphir · Nov 10, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

I swear I must be playing a different version of nightfall than all of you

Snares are a waste of space, I never use them. Hell, Devona's got "charge", what need has she for snares, she could probably outrun them if they so decided to flee.

I think part of the reason henching it is much easier these days is partly their improved "I'm not an invincible idiot tanker" mentality. The other part is that they now sport an elite which they actually use quite a bit.

The enemy AI has become a bit tougher, you can see this in how much better some groups w/ monks can hold up if a group doesn't focus fire on targets.

I've been in pugs where the human players are like waves breaking against a cement wall, all attacking different targets until I finally either run out of energy due to the idiot that ran deep and aggro'd everything in an attempt to take out the backline monk.. or we get flanked and taken out from the back.

But run w/ heroes and elite henchies, they swarm the called target like flies to a piece dog crap

kiting...? there's no where to go lol

Heimdallw32 · Nov 10, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

[Long winded post follows]
I think part of the AI change is intentional; However, some of it clearly can't be. Having a swarm of 8 or so Mountain Trolls running around aimlessly after a guildie used Cyclone Axe on them was amusing at first, till we realized they wern't -stopping-. They kept running around in random directions, even when at near full health and noone attacking them. They didn't even go very far, and only a couple would stop to attack, untill one of us tried to attack it, then the freaking out started again. Now, this was only once, so probably was fixed allready.

That will likely be tweaked so they're more calm.

Now, I have noticed casters running when they get focused on early in an engagement, that's fine, they're casters. I havn't seen them running all across the map to get away, though.

The main issue I have with the AI is with casters and them getting locked into a clearly buggy chase routine.

Example: I'm running from Drok's to Rankor. I speed past Trolls, they disengage when I get past them, I speed past Avicara warriors and rangers and monks, they all give up when I get a half aggro-circle away. The mesmers and necros, however...those will chase me every time, forever and ever. Anti-runner code? Ok, that's acceptable. Running was easy before anyway. Not sure why only casters chase you though. If the whole group chased you as a team, that would make sense, as much as it would make some people upset.

Now for what I think is broken about that: If you stop, they will cast a spell or two most of the time, then sit there. Not trying to kill you. Just waiting for you to run again. This doesn't happen every time, but it does seem like they don't try very hard to kill you.

Better example: Stone Summit necros on the way from Yak's to Beacon's. Every time I run, one will -always- decide to chase me for a very long time. I stop, he runs up, uses Vile Touch, then runs away a short distance and...waits. I go closer to him, he Vile Touches, and pulls back a little. I run again, and he chases till I get closer to him. Hilarious, but obviously not what Anet wants, considering that a single one of those isn't a threat to anyone, not with it not using more than one attack at a time.

My point, is that I doubt this is the "final" version of the AI. Will it go back to how it was? Probably not. Is that a bad thing that the AI isn't as simple to kill (no more "tank go first, we kill monk, lawl easy")? Probably not. Is it annoying as hell -sometimes- as it is right now? Hell yes. Will they fix what's wrong with it? Most likely. Bring a snare? No need really, as has been pointed out by previous posters.

arcady · Nov 10, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Read Gaile's post. That running around aimlessly -WAS- intentional. Even for those high level critters you mention, and even until they run themselves dead.

What we are seeing in the game, like it or hate it, and I hate it, is EXACTLY what they wanted.

VGJustice · Nov 10, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

I'm gonna quote the single best post I've seen on this subject. It was up on mmorpg.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by guestalt11 at MMORPG.com

Yeah I know what all these farmers are complaining about. I was in a dark alley the other day I pulled a knife on someone and told them to give me their wallet. The noob just turned around and ran. So I had to chase him so I could get my drop and he aggroed me into a police spawn. Friggin Devs don't know how to program a game.

I'd also like to point out that if you defeat a single melee chracter in the mob, the running A.I. gets turned off. There is no reason to take any ranged speed reduction skills, just good damage skills.

Heimdallw32 · Nov 10, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Allright, the "Oh no, panic!" routine is inentional. Ok. Annoying, but funny sometimes. I can see why they'd do it, considering melee mobs are the most-farmed type of mob, they'd want to make it less efficient. (Note that they didn't kill farming, the bots are still at it, go to Elona Reach, international districts and look if anyone thinks farming is dead.)

How about the "caster chasing forever but not trying very hard to kill" bit? (From the example I gave, especially the Stone Summit necro in the N. Shiverpeaks.) I'm hoping that's not intentional, because I can't see a point to it other than to provide amusement. A single Howler isn't a threat to anyone, not when all it does is Vile Touch once, back off and follow till you move closer, and repeat.

I guess that dwarf likes to touch me, but he's a bit shy?

-Shrug-

arcady · Nov 10, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

VGJustice: That post you quote was written by someone who is clearly ignorant of the situation.

A pack of level 20 Kournan warriors are not mugging victims... Now if a level 20 player character takes on a level 1 villager outside Kamadan, sure - the villager -SHOULD RUN-.

But turn around and take on Corsairs, Skree, Kournan soldiers, and so on - when they flee before they are losing, it is just absurd. And even they were losing, they should retreat, not flee. The difference is striking when you see it. In a retreat you pull back in an organized fashion designed to maximize survival of the unit and not of individuals. You would do this at the squad level by retreating in steps with some of your unit acting to allow others to get to the next staging ground where they can prepare to let the first batch through and so on.

Or, at the least, you pull back in a way that works to minimize your losses.

You don't run in circles, you don't scatter, you don't lead the enemy right back into your own lines in the randomness of your scatter flight. You don't turn your back on them and keep it turned...

This has nothing to do with farming. I'm very strongly anti-farming.

I want a tough AI, one that makes farming harder. This AI is easy to kill. I can play the game on cruise control. I'm 35, I grew up before the age of video games - I'm not the best player of them. Younger people usually toss me around like a cat with a rubber mouse - me being the mouse - and most games I buy do so as well.

But this game is easy for a person like me. Sure, I don't want a game were I get smacked down and can never get up, but give me a challenge...

This new AI is pro-farming for those of us who have figured out how easy it is to overcome. Before I used to wonder how anybody could farm this game, because a player like me had to be on the edge of my seat at all times. Now I just flag my heroes and henchies to a spot and stay where I am collecting XP at zero risk, then hit ';' and 'space' repeatedly to collect the treasure, and then flag my heroes and henchies to the next dropzone.

VGJustice · Nov 10, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

No, actually, I'd say he's got a pretty good grasp on the situation.

arcady · Nov 10, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

You seriously think soldiers should flee at the first sign of danger?

That, if true, would put you into a fairly brainless category as well...

Sli Ander · Nov 10, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I agree with arcady on the most part, as I believe I've posted before. But you're forgetting one thing dude. This isn't just soldier on soldier. This is soldier fighting the player. The player being the guy that took on the lich, undead hordes, possibly killed glint, as well as the 'unseen gods'. And that's just prophecies.

so it would be more akin to getting mugged by jason x or freddy kreuger in a dark alley. We are Legendary, Epic people. To meet us on the battlefield would be like going up against hannibal, Julius Caesar, and Sun Tzu rolled into one; people that even the most battle hardened soldiers of the day gave second thought before fighting.

lunksunkunk · Nov 10, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by VGJustice

No, actually, I'd say he's got a pretty good grasp on the situation.

So what your saying is, if im a lvl 20 monk (used that for dramatic purposes) and i go and wand a group of lvl 28 margonites with a good set of melee, mesmers, healers, necros, and eles, that they should run away in sheer horror because i might be packing a skill called spellbreaker? lol. Thats quite a powerful skill when they can spike you for more 300 dmg in a single second just from melee, and when it wears off, of which u wont survive anyways, they can spike u again with casters. If thats how we compare and constrast farming to AI improvement, then i gotta say, that sure is a creative way to approach a problem and argue that money is the root of this endeavor.

crimsonfilms · Nov 10, 2006, 05:35 AM // 05:35

The new anti-Ai people is confusing me.
There seems to be constant contradiction. It is easy, no its not. They kite, they dont kite enough. They ganks softies. They dont gank softies enough.

It seems the argument is confused beause their actual argument is just to 'revert' the AI back to what they are familiar with.

I found enemy monks kite better than most human NPCs. Hell at least they kite. Human monks just stand there and put on prot spirit and healing breeze.

They can make the AI as good as human - hell they can teach them to mix spike. But I doubt that is what people really want. They just want the 'good old days'. Where they can predict every move and just whack em to death. God forbid people have to kite, snare, and use other skills besides tanking, nuking and breezing.

And finally. It is amazing the nit picking of the AI. Where was this months ago? People complained about the AI before but not for the same reason. Or at least not with the same zeal. Most energy was spent on 'OMFG I cant farm with new AI - gg ANet'. I barely saw any thread about the unusual behavior - which was there.

You guys are being disengenous.

VGJustice · Nov 10, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Well said, crimsonfilms.

This game is about player skill. Always has been, and likely will be more so in the future. If you don't like hard games, then this isn't really the game for you. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some Gradius to go beat again.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 10, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Yeah, I don't know what the anti-A.I. complaints are anymore since they seem to contradict themselves.

First it was too hard and frustrating, now it's too easy and frustrating. The only thing that's for sure it that it's frustrating to them.

Blackest Rose · Nov 10, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Actually it can be "frustratingly easy".

I don't see that many threads saying that NF is way too hard but I see lots of posts about the frustration that AI enemies/henchies/heroes are screwed up right now - which doesn't make the game harder or more difficult - just longer and more boring.

As in my previous post, AI for prophecies and factions had a stronger spike aspect and everything kept coming for you - now you can approach a group and reduce their overall damage output by forcing them to think they're in danger...

I'm in a mob of monsters - previously they would swarm me at once and I'd have to fight for my life, now I damage a few with a cyclone axe - they go off and have a good cry leaving a much smaller group for me to kill, et viola I've reduced the entire spike damage of the mob with the new AI, simply by forcing the damage to be spread out over a longer time - easy but boring....

All this coupled with the ability to make uber-heroes (treble instant interrupt) really puts mobs at a disadvantage further increasing the use of the "that was easy!" button.

Also it can be "frustratingly hard" if your henchies and heroes don't act as you expect which is again related to the AI changes/problems.

frustratingly easy - monster AI is flawed and you should be dying more
frustratingly hard - hench/heroes AI is flawed and you keep dying when you shouldn't

See it's not that people are at opposite ends of the spectrum here - the common link is AI updates.

lunksunkunk · Nov 10, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

many ppl with many opinions what can i say? some think its too difficult, some think its too easy, some find it strange, some find it annoying, but i think the general consensus is that its fustrating. I dont know if anyone really contradicted themselves though i have read a few weird posts here and there, i just have a casual attitude to it. I find it fustrating at times as do most ppl, then again hilarious on another. Sometimes i like playing tag, or catch me if u can. Other times i like snaring and dazing casters and watching them panic.

But honestly, relating this fustration to the fustration that someone cant farm anymore? i can see where ur coming from, but alot of the posts were disgruntled people who just want to finish a quest, cap a skill, or finish a mission. Yea AI is fustrating, does is encourage more ppl to play? some ppl like to be fustrated i guess, so yea, u see posts of ppl enjoying it. While some find it absolutely annoying? can u blame em for having there own opinion on the issue? I think everyone has a somewhat valid point regardless of whether or not the "cool" players agree. then again, i can see the flames that will result from this overly coined term that i used jokingly.

Lord Xavius · Nov 10, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

First, I'm not going to whine about the AI..although it is comical how it will follow you through an entire zone while sprinting and charging--only to run for its life when threatened at all.

I made this quick video to show how some gnashers followed me half way across taska's then they fled when i attacked with a sword with 0 swordmanship...then they began following me again...repeat...absolutely hilarious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyDXA3aLyhs

lunksunkunk · Nov 10, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Xavius

First, I'm not going to whine about the AI..although it is comical how it will follow you through an entire zone while sprinting and charging--only to run for its life when threatened at all.

I made this quick video to show how some gnashers followed me half way across taska's then they fled when i attacked with a sword with 0 swordmanship...then they began following me again...repeat...absolutely hilarious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyDXA3aLyhs

LMAO. Those dwarves must've had a hard-on for you. And its even funnier that they seem to have rocket shoes and hawk eyes for aggro-ing even when you ran that far away.

Lord Xavius · Nov 10, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

That's what also amazes me..while having such a large speed boost they still can keep up even though they cast no running spells of their own.